Posted By UncaYimmy on 09 Mar 2010 02:16 PM
I think she should have had a 30 day suspension and probation - the last step before banning. She should have been suspended for her meltdown over Alenara, but the mods were "too busy" to act "quickly enough" to do anything about her personal attacks (five infractions in two days after coming off back-to-back suspensions). I guess she's not such a nice person after all, is she?

Bookitty - Do you still think she's coming around? I say the ghost stories and lashing out indicate she's getting worse, not better.

Ahhh...devil's advocate time.

I do think she is coming around and that the lashing out is a symptom of that.   A few days ago, she retracted her claim to long-distance psychic ability.   I wish I had noticed at the time and been able to offer her some support and encouragement.   As it was, she got bupkis.

Both here and on the JREF forums, people have been pounding her to admit that she has no psychic ability.  She does and gets the same negative reaction that her less-skeptical statements receive.   Even if the entire thing was an attention-getting tactic, that has to be frustrating.  No one is at their best when they are frustrated, cornered and being judged.  Very few people can remain calm in an onslaught of negativity.  Both the insult to Desertgal and the in-your-face ghost stories were reactionary, based on emotion not logic.  Backsliding into more familiar territory is not the most saintly behavior but at least she had a place to backslide from.

That being said, her suspension is completely justified.  Desertgal’s medical history was offered in an attempt to help VFF.  Since then it has been used against her in blatant ad hominem attacks.  Hiding the link in her sig was childish.  If she is working towards gaining the respect of the boards, she failed.   

She said here...

Or, perhaps it is that I changed my mind? I've had enough of telepathic adventures with the Regen IIG test. Which I attended.

...accompanied by this 'adage', which was in response to Akhenaten posting the original "tangled web" quote a few posts before hers:

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to change our mind about telepathy after the Regen test!

- Madam VFF

And here...

After sitting at the Regen IIG test for over an hour listening to telepathic thoughts about beer and playing cards I decided to permanently switch off my superb telepathic abilities, and it can't be reversed. It took me days to get those pesky instruction cards out from being imprinted on my mind. It was traumatizing. (Find out about instruction cards here.) But I told you that already? Didn't you hear me?

...again with the same 'adage':

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to change our mind about telepathy after the Regen test!

- Madam VFF

Then...

At least I don't have *********************** so I don't think I've been places I haven't. And changing one's mind about telepathy, and toward Skepticism at that, would be encouraged, if you were a Skeptic, and is not lies or fraud.

To which I made a reply here.

Retracted the claim? Or simply playing games? Sorry, but her facetiousness doesn't indicate, to me, that she was serious about retracting her claim.

Now, if Anita came on the JREF, behaved like an adult,  and said something along the lines of "Hey, I've been giving my claims serious, critical thought, and I'm starting to confront the idea that they may be more delusional than real" I'd support her 100%. I think many of us would. Instead, she acts like a ten year old playing games with people that she has already mistreated over and over again. She earned the response(s) she received.

As well, in the VfF General Discussion thread, Ashles and several others have asked Anita repeatedly if she continues to stand by any or all of her claims, and she has pointedly refused to answer. Perhaps I am looking at it the wrong way, but that does appear, to me, to be the perfect opportunity for Anita to address the issue seriously. And, no, I don't believe they were "pounding" her, but, even if they were, I truly think that, again, if Anita had replied seriously, with an attempt at a critical examination of her abilities, then many would respond in kind.

Desertgal,  you have a very good point.   Anita, to give credit where it is due, is the most well-spoken woo on the forum.  So it is frustrating that she would be so juvenile when it came to a possible retraction.  Is it a way to back out, testing the waters, yanking some chains?  Who knows.    It would be lovely to see her use her considerable intellect to express some questions or reservations she might be having.

If she is leaning away from woo, she's got a very tough road ahead.  Mistakes will be made, souls will be searched.  It's easy to see how she might be a bit gun-shy.  For example, I'm sick of the "you're a liar and a fraud" quote and it isn't even aimed at me.   Still, I'll keep seeing it until she tries honest, adult approach.  Perhaps the members of the JREF are frustrated with her and too quick to judge but she keeps giving them the same answers looking for a new result.   It's one of those stand-off situations where the bad blood runs too deep for easy answers. 

Posted By bookitty on 09 Mar 2010 11:27 PM

If she is leaning away from woo, she's got a very tough road ahead. 

The road would be made much easier if she would accept critical examination of her own claims first, and attempt it herself. Until that happens, I doubt that anyone will seriously believe that her new found skepticism is genuine, and not just Anita jerking chains again. Nor should they be expected to. "I am a skeptic...except when it comes to my own claims" is never going to fly. Neither is the half sycophantic, half mocking use of "Skeptics".

Perhaps the members of the JREF are frustrated with her and too quick to judge but she keeps giving them the same answers looking for a new result.  

I'm not sure they are too quick to judge. We're now a year and a half down the road with Anita, and it's gone exactly nowhere.  If anything, I see a lot of people who continued to be patient with her for much longer than her behavior deserved, and who only threw their hands up in frustration after she went back on her word about the IIG demonstration.. So, their judgement comes with consideration of all that has gone before, and I don't believe that can be rated as "too quick" judgement.

She sells her real self short, you know. She doesn't need all this crap to be appreciated as a unique individual.

  It's one of those stand-off situations where the bad blood runs too deep for easy answers. 

I think you're right. But, again, if she appeared to even tentatively approach her claims with real objectivity, and actually listened to input, I think a lot of people would help her. I do believe, though, that Anita is a lost cause. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am.

Posted By bookitty on 09 Mar 2010 11:27 PM

[...] For example, I'm sick of the "you're a liar and a fraud" quote and it isn't even aimed at me.   Still, I'll keep seeing it until she tries honest, adult approach. [...]

Indeed. She solicited that comment. She invited it, literally. If she, or any of her defenders, happen to believe for a moment that she's been innocently wrapped up in this and is somehow a victim, it's appropriate that they be reminded regularly that any suffering she does she has brought upon herself.

GeeMack,  She is not a victim.   That implies that she has no control over the situation and we all know that's not the case.   She feel trapped in a belief system/persona that is starting to chafe, but she built that trap and she will need to dismantle it.   I am inclined to help her (if possible) but don't expect it from others.

Desertgal, This new-found camaraderie with “the skeptics” is confusing.  It may be based on her experiences with IIG West.  They are some seriously intelligent and kind people.  But going to the concert doesn’t mean you’re in the band. 

She sells her real self short, you know. She doesn't need all this crap to be appreciated as a unique individual.

That.  Exactly that.  In the genetic lottery, she won.   Take away the claims and you've got a smart, funny, imaginative skeptic.  A while back you pointed out how her experiences could help others. It's true.  She’s got two years history of woo on the JREF, a background in breatharianism, and a paranormal test.  If she were to start examining all of her claims critically, it would open up a very unique dialog.    Instead we get ghost stories and ugh! the migraine test.  Frustrating.  

Posted By bookitty on 10 Mar 2010 01:41 PM

GeeMack,  She is not a victim.   That implies that she has no control over the situation and we all know that's not the case.   She feel trapped in a belief system/persona that is starting to chafe, but she built that trap and she will need to dismantle it.   I am inclined to help her (if possible) but don't expect it from others.

 

What I would expect, from a reasonable human being with a legitimate desire to participate in the real world with real people, is for her to take responsibility for her problem. Denying that she has a problem is one thing, but she treats other people like shit. She needs to come to grips with that part of her problem and start to treat people with honesty, decency, and respect. Right now she's a long, long way from there.

I've been inclined to help her, too, but no mincing words from me. I don't oh-poor-baby anyone over about 6 years old. I'm telling her, and have been telling her for months and months, that she's a liar and a fraud, and that she's mentally ill and should get qualified professional help.

My name is Anita Ikonen and I am in the process of arranging with the IIG in Hollywood to test what seems to be either true extrasensory perception or the case of something similar to synesthesia which leads me to obtain accurate information that is normally out of reach of ordinary perception. I would like the opportunity to discuss my ability and the test of it with critical thinkers, science-minded persons, open-minded persons, or anyone else who is curious about this or has any comments that they would like to share with me.

Unlike many who are under the impression that they have a psychic ability, I am very willing to discuss this openly and to subject my ability to scrutiny. There is no trick to it and I have nothing to hide. I am a science-student and interested in finding out the true nature of my ability. I believe that there are elements of the paranormal that can be brought into science once properly understood and established.

You can find my webpage if you search the web on my user name. On it I describe my ability and the information that I receive through it, as well as the test I am having with the IIG. I thought I would discuss this here since it would probably attract a lot of attention anyway as I have the test later on. I look forward to hearing from you.

Posted By bookitty on 10 Mar 2010 02:05 PM

...
Take away the claims and you've got a smart, funny, imaginative skeptic.
...

When the claims fall away, she'll still be an individual with severe problems.
The claims are not the problem, her psychological state giving rise to the misconduct she display(ed)(s) is.

I've never considered her a skeptic. Whenever she "acts" like a skeptic, I could not escape the impression that it wasn't real, that she was simply emulating a skeptical stance.