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Wednesday, September 08, 2010
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19

Chillzero, a former moderator at the JREF Forums, has suggested that I apologize. I respect Chillzero and feel her comments deserve a response.

I should note that the JREF has the power to reinstate my account and only give me access to post in Forum Management and nowhere else. It would take them all of about five minutes to set up. While I appreciate the feedback from members, it's awkward responding to blog comments and e-mails, especially without having seen what was actually said in Forum Management.

Anyway, if a member is banned from the JREF Forums yet could be reinstated by simply making an apology, then I argue that the member should never have been banned in the first place. Members should be banned because their presence has an adverse effect on forums and the rest of the membership. Banning and reinstatement should not be used as a stick and carrot to force someone to apologize. So, I turn the question back to you: Why was I banned? What rule did I violate? What other members, if any, have been banned under similar circumstances?

I also have a number of other questions. It seems like people don't fully understand what actually transpired or the JREF has a different interpretation.

Q: Two months ago when I asked for my account to have posting privileges suspended, was it written anywhere (officially or in discussions in FM) that my account would be altered such that I could not log in?
To the best of my knowledge, no.

Q: Within hours after making the above request, was my account set so that I could not make posts or see the Members Only forums?
Yes.

Q: Was I able to still log in after my posting privileges were suspended?
Yes, for two months.

Q: Did this reduced access level, which was set up by the Administrators, allow me to use the Ignore feature and report posts?
Yes. From what I have read in the vBulletin manual, it is not possible to turn off reporting posts by access level. Anybody who can log in can report posts. This includes newly registered members who have validated their e-mail address but have not been upgraded manually by Lisa Simpson.

Q: Did I report posts during this two month period of logging in?
Yes. By my recollection I reported four or five posts, most of which received moderator action (typically posts in the wrong forum).

Q: If I were not logged in, could I report posts?
No. Try it yourself. Log out and read a thread. The report icon is gone.

Q: At any time prior to this incident did anyone at the JREF tell me they did not want me to report posts?
No.

Q: Is the JREF within their rights to keep me from reporting posts?
Absolutely. Had they asked me not to, I would have stopped.

Q: Did Darat, two months after my access level was reduced, change my password without telling me?
Yes.

Q: Did I use the built-in feature to request that my password be reset and then log back into the system?
Yes.

Q: After the password reset, did Darat change my password a second time without telling me?
Yes.

Q: At the same time as the above, did Darat also change my e-mail address so that I could not request a password reset, also without telling me?
Yes.

Q: Did I ask Lisa Simpson if the admins changed my password and e-mail that day?
Yes. I was told that they had not.

Q: Did I accuse the JREF of some sort of conspiracy?
No. First, a conspiracy involves two or more people Second, I wrote, "A more likely scenario yet certainly unproven based on what little information I have is that someone at the JREF has tampered with my account." (emphasis added). I also suggested that it could be a hacker, a bug, or a corrupted record in the database.

Q: Did someone at the JREF, in fact, change my account multiple times without my knowledge?
Yes. Darat stated that he was the one who made the changes.

Q: How do I know when the changes were made?
As described above, I was able to log in for two months. I was able to report posts. This is not in dispute. On the day in question I was able to reset my password after it was changed the first time.

Q: Did I misunderstand Darat when he tried to tell me that he was the one making the changes?
Yes. When I finally understood what he was trying to tell me, I apologized and said, "Sorry, I misunderstood." In my defense, he never came right out and said, "I was the one who made all of the changes to your account." It appears he was the only one with full knowledge of what happened.

Q: Were there questions I asked the JREF that went unanswered?
Yes. I asked a number of direct questions that were ignored.

Q: Did Jeff Wagg tell me that I was wrong about being able to log in for two months?
Yes. He said it was simply cookies and that I was not logged in. It had nothing to do with cookies. My account was set to permit me to log in without posting privileges, which is what I requested and expected. How else could I report posts?

Q: In retrospect do I feel that Darat was being clear?
No. Lisa Simpson did not know Darat had made the changes. Jeff Wagg appeared to believe that I had never been able to log in to my account. It seems the only two people who knew that my account had been altered that day were Darat and myself. The only person who knew who had done it was Darat.

Q: Did Lisa or anyone else apologize for incorrectly telling me that nobody at the JREF had made changes to my account that day?
No.

Q: Did Darat apologize for not notifying me that he was going to change my password after I had been allowed to use it for two months at a reduced access level?
No.

Q: Did Darat apologize for changing my e-mail address without telling me even though he was fully aware that I had just used my e-mail address to reset my password?
No.

Q: Did Jeff Wagg apologize for incorrectly telling me that I had never been able to log in and that it was only cookies?
No.

Q: When Jeff Wagg asked me if I wanted an account or not, did I answer?
Yes. I told him that if my choices were not being able to log in at all or having full membership, I "respectfully request the latter."

Q: When Jeff asked me to repeat my answer, why didn't I just answer?
Because I wanted to prove that my penis was just as long as his and that I could piss just as far. I don't mean to be vulgar, but at that point it was a pissing match.

Q: Why did I bring up the possibility that someone at the JREF was out to get me, so to speak?
I first became suspicious because the changes came 12 hours after my blog critical of the JREF. Why suddenly after two months would my account be changed? In addition, my relationship with Jeff, Darat, and Lisa was strained at best. Considering how easily I was banned, I think that point is not in dispute. Has anyone else been banned for such a trivial exchange? Still, though, I gave them the benefit of the doubt. I only became seriously concerned when Lisa told me that nobody there had touched my account. It turns out that I was right - somebody at the JREF (Darat) made changes to my account without telling me. Only they know their true motivations, which are actually irrelevant. I just wanted to know what was happening to my account.

Q: Why do I say the moderators engage in favoritism?
Because Jeff Wagg told me they do. I sent an e-mail to Jeff outlining how a particular member was doing things for which others have received infractions and suspensions. His entire response to me was, "Thank you for sharing your thoughts. [Deleted] has a relationship with the JREF that extends beyond the forum. [He/She] does get special treatment because of this."

Q: Why don't I reveal this person's name?
My concern is the inequality and the adverse effect it has on the board (uneven moderation has been the downfall of many a forum). It's not about the individual in the least. Besides, this person seems blissfully unaware of the special treatment.

Q: Why should anyone believe I would care about the success of the JREF?
I think if you read this thread you will see that I have tried to make useful contributions to the JREF. You may notice that nobody at the JREF responded. There are a number of posts in Forum Management where I supported the moderators.

Q: What do I feel that I did wrong?
Honestly, nothing. I don't think it was unreasonable to bring up the possibility that there were personal issues involved, especially when I explicitly stated that I was not certain and had insufficient information to form a conclusion. I don't think it was inappropriate for me to report four or five posts over an eight week period when I was never told that I could not. I think it was reasonable to expect to be told that my password and e-mail that I had been actively using were being changed. Remember, I never once said they did not have the right to do it, I only questioned the timing because I wasn't told about it. Finally, I received conflicting, incorrect and vague information and did my best under the circumstances. The fact that it ended in a pissing match is not surprising.

Q: Why don't I just apologize anyway?
First, it wouldn't be sincere. Second, the JREF needs to understand that each and every member of the forum is valuable as a person and as an asset. Jeff is the Outreach Director and should realize that most non-profits would be thrilled to have such a large and vibrant web forum. In the marketing world, visits to the website are called touches. They are extremely valuable. Smart organizations devote their time to increasing the number and quality of touches. They are countless other entities competing for my time and yours. There are countless non-profits trying to get their message to me. You can bet that 99.9% of them don't make the public humble themselves just so they can spread their message.

In other words, the JREF needs to learn that they need the forums more than the members do. If the forums were closed today, we'd all find other places to go in a heartbeat. By contrast it would take a lot of time and money for the JREF to reach that many people. The JREF also needs to learn that the success of the forums is due to the contributions of the membership. The reality is that nobody at the JREF actually participates other than to discuss their fundraisers. The forums thrive despite the JREF, not because of them.

Instead of finding a way to reach out to me and resolve the situation in a mutually beneficial way, Jeff behaved as though I were a child and he had something that I desperately wanted. Sorry, but I don't respond well to that type of behavior modification. He threw my membership in the trash, not me.

Q: Do I think the JREF should apologize?
I want to answer this very carefully. If they worked for me or if the JREF were a client of mine, here's what I would tell them to say: 

"We regret how the situation was handled and will look at revising our procedures so it doesn't happen again. As a gesture of good faith, we have restored Mr. Carr's e-mail address so that he may request a new password if he so chooses. His access level still does not permit him to post, but he still has access to the ignore feature and the post reporting feature. As a gesture of good faith on Mr. Carr's part, we ask that if chooses to log in that he does not report any more posts. Doing so would result in his account being permanently disabled without warning. If Mr. Carr would like to have full membership again, he can make that request. We will evaluate that request the same way we would for any new registration, which at this point means he would be granted membership. We appreciate that sometimes a member needs to take a break and would prefer that they do so voluntarily rather than forcing our administrators to take the unsavory step of suspending a member. If we can help by disabling the ability to post, that's a good thing. It certainly takes less time and effort than doling out infractions, issuing suspensions, and dealing with appeals and sock puppets."

As for whether I personally require an apology, no, I don't.

Posted in: JREF

Comments

GreyICE
# GreyICE
Thursday, November 19, 2009 8:37 PM
Seriously, chill out a little. I agree with you, and you're coming on a tad err... strong.
plumjam
# plumjam
Thursday, November 19, 2009 9:26 PM
No, Jim, you shouldn't apologize.

Apologize for what?
They want you to apologize so they can save face and, in future, rewrite history to make out like this was all somehow your doing.
There have already been enough weak attempts to blame-the-victim over there in FM, if you say sorry then that will just give those attempts some legitimacy.

You could maybe come to some agreement with no apologies on either side.

That is, if you do indeed want your account restored.
Do you want your account restored?
Really?
You sure?
First you've gotta pull my finger and recite the alphabet backwards while hopping, in a miniskirt.

(Last part is light-heartedness)
UncaYimmy
# UncaYimmy
Thursday, November 19, 2009 11:24 PM
GreyICE, I hear you. Maybe you can understand why I needed to take a break. Some people spend their time arguing about carts that go downwind faster than the wind. Others argue with physics cranks who think they have debunked Einstein without any math. Still others go in circles about Palestine & Israel or whether we can ever know if there's a god. We all have our hot buttons.

If I had it to do over again, I would have just gotten myself suspended instead of asking to have my posting privileges taken away. Those people don't get their passwords changed and are welcomed back with open arms when the suspension is up.
GeeMack
# GeeMack
Friday, November 20, 2009 12:55 PM
Yes. Apologize for any part you might have played in the miscommunication that resulted in your being banned. Apologizing doesn't mean you're acknowledging responsibility for the entire situation. You can be sorry something occurred even if you had no part in it. You can be sorry that this JREF situation got escalated to the point that it did without admitting guilt for the escalation.

I, for one, happen to know that Jeff is a pretty poor communicator, and is inclined to overlook legitimate points made in a written exchange. Whatever his reason, in too big a hurry, too busy with other things, sets a very low priority to forum issues, working through recovery from a drinking binge, whatever, he's a human being, too. And just because he acted wrongly in this situation doesn't mean it can't be resurrected by your bucking up, being the guy with honor and integrity, and acknowledging that your communication may have been driven by unnecessary zealousness and was not as succinct as it could have been.

Apologize and ask for your full account privileges to be restored. If it leads to the lifting of your ban, great. There are obviously a lot of folks over at the forum who would be glad to see you participate again. If it falls on deaf ears or otherwise gets rejected, at least you'll know you've acted like an adult, and it wasn't you who blew off the other parties with dismissive condescension as certain members of the JREF staff have been known to do.

Then, if you get your account back, when you get to feeling like you want to strangle some member for her ignorance and lies, her mouthy arrogance, her smarmy rejection of anything remotely scientific, you just PM a few others who obviously agree with you and blow off your steam there in PMs. Again, Jeff and the moderators are clearly biased in favor of certain members. Nobody but Jeff and the mods themselves (and a few of their fanboys of course) would deny that. Recognize that and participate with that understanding. You can't change it. If you try, as you've seen, that's what'll get you in trouble.

My $.04.
Farencue
# Farencue
Friday, November 20, 2009 3:41 PM
Geemack - the voice of reason.
Just apologise for the situation that has arisen UncaYimmy, no need to try and get the mods to understand where you are coming from - it's futile.
Do what you gotta do, to get where you want to go.
UncaYimmy
# UncaYimmy
Friday, November 20, 2009 4:55 PM
Thanks for all the comments, both public and private.

I already apologized for the misunderstanding when I said, "Sorry, I misunderstood." When Jeff asked if I wanted my account back, I said that I "respectfully request" as much. I also said that the reason I didn't answer a second time was because it was a pissing match. And I have repeatedly explained where the miscommunication occurred.

It's all sitting right there on the table. I haven't retracted my apology or my request for reinstatement. I flat out said that I do not require an apology from them. So, the real question is why they have done nothing with this.

Volatile
# Volatile
Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:15 PM
If you want to come back, Yimmy, the ball is in your court. A polite email, free of snark and accusation, and you'll be allowed back.

There were numerous faults in this issue and yours was certainly not the first... but you're not blameless (as you yourself seem to have acknowledged). I, for one, would like to see you back on the forums, especially to contribute to the VFF threads following the test.

So please. Swallow your pride. Follow GeeMack's advice. Come back.
derardi
# derardi
Sunday, November 22, 2009 2:33 PM
your posts belong on jref,that is where they do the most good. take a deep breath and do it. you are missed by many people.


derardi
gtc
# gtc
Monday, November 23, 2009 6:14 AM
I am very sorry to hear that you have been kicked off the JREF forums. I hope they will allow you back eventually but I don't think you should have to grovel to be allowed back in.

I would like to know which poster receives the special treatment Wagg was talking about. This accords with what I have witnessed with respect to one or two members but goes against what the mods and admins claim. Are you sure the poster is not aware of their special status?
UncaYimmy
# UncaYimmy
Monday, November 23, 2009 4:31 PM
I have not received any indication that I could simply ask for my account to be restored. I'm not sure why people are saying that I could. Has something be said in Forum Management? Sure, I could create a sock and see for myself, but that's not how I operate.

GTC - send me an e-mail at UncaYimmy on the domain GMAIL dot com, and I'll let you know who it is that receives special treatment according to Jeff Wagg.
Volatile
# Volatile
Monday, November 23, 2009 5:10 PM
From Jeff's fingers, about 30 seconds ago:

"So yes, I apologize for not taking the opportunity to use more neutral wording in my first communication with UncaYimmy on this issue."

Suck it up. Come back. An email to Jeff saying "Sorry this all got out of hand... the internet's so terrible for drama, ain't it? I'd love to re-open my account" and you'll be allowed back. You're not banned.

Be a bigger man, Jim.
UncaYimmy
# UncaYimmy
Tuesday, November 24, 2009 3:44 PM
Just fired off this e-mail:

Jeff,

I apologize for my actions that led to our recent exchange getting out of hand. I respectfully request that my account be reinstated.

Thank you,

Jim Carr
Volatile
# Volatile
Tuesday, November 24, 2009 6:34 PM
Brilliant.

Good to have you back.
derardi
# derardi
Tuesday, November 24, 2009 7:15 PM
your first post is proof of where you belong. no doubt that you sank her ship.



thank you,

derardi

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